Supervising sound editor, sound designer and re-recording mixer Johnnie Burn has been busy working on not one but two of this year’s Oscar-nominated films, The Zone of Interest and Poor Things. One is about the horrors of the Holocaust, and the other is a whimsical tale of rebirth and the love of life.

Burn reunites with director Jonathan Glazer on The Zone of Interest after previously working on Glazer’s first film, Under the Skin. While collaborating again on The Zone of Interest, Burn and Glazer aimed for a super-realistic soundscape to maintain the authenticity of the sounds that would have been heard during the Holocaust. Burn and production sound mixer Tarn Willers were nominated for a Best Sound Oscar for their work on the film.

Clearly adept at developing long-lasting collaborations, Burn also recently reunited with The Favourite and The Lobster director Yorgos Lanthimos on Poor Things. Burn worked to develop a soundscape to match the atmosphere of the film.

We reached out to Burn to find out more about his work on both films. Let’s start with the Holocaust film The Zone of Interest…

You have worked with Jonathan Glazer before. When did he approach you about this film? And how does that relationship work in terms of shorthand, etc.?
I’ve known Jon for 27 years, and this was our second film. A decade ago, we made Under the Skin and learned a lot about how we like to use sound for a different kind of cinematic immersion. Over the years, Jon had mentioned this film, The Zone of Interest, but it was only when he gave me the script a couple of years out that I realized just how much it would rely on sound.

We agreed that we didn’t know specifically how we would do it, telling the story of the atrocities through sound. We knew that he was going to go and shoot the film, and in a year, he would return to begin post production. Over that time I needed to become an expert on what Auschwitz sounded like in 1943 — the motorbikes that passed by the road outside the camp, the nationalities of the prisoners and so on — and learn the detail of the events that took place there, which led to murder and mass murder on a daily basis.

In terms of our shorthand, I knew Jon wasn’t going to accept any form of mockup representation in sound. Only a soundscape with immense integrity would sound right over such documentary images.

The film is intense and covers a very serious topic — quite a different tone than Poor Things. Can you talk about approaching this film versus Poor Things?
The Zone of Interest was very intense indeed, and the sound is very much an extraordinary counternarrative to the images you see. Jon and I always thought of it as two films: one being the film you see and the other being the film you hear.

Film 1 is a family drama — an exceedingly immersive journey into a family and its house in 1943. It was filmed with many scenes taking place simultaneously thanks to hidden cameras (the director rigged multiple cameras around the house, allowing the actors to improvise and were often unaware the cameras were even rolling]. Some takes were an hour long so that the actors could just “be.” We can observe and keep our critical distance, which really allows us to ponder how like us they are.

Film 2 is the sound that comes over the wall from the concentration camp. It is the sound that the occupants of the house ignore, and it is the worst horrorscape imaginable. We created a scientific representation based on substantial research of the atrocities that took place in Poland in 1943.

To be honest, The Zone of Interest was such a difficult immersion mentally that it bore no relation to working on Poor Things whatsoever. For Zone, I had to become an expert on the sound of genocide, and for Poor Things, I had to make imaginary worlds come to life.

What were some of the more challenging scenes in the film from an audio perspective?
I think every scene was challenging, as the whole thing was pretty awful to listen to and awful to work on.

Probably the hardest was the scene where Rudolf stands in his garden in the evening and smokes a cigar whilst we hear the sound of the gas chamber and crematoria in operation. This was something I had researched elaborately. There was much testimony on the terrifying, howling chorus of pain; the banging and scratching at the doors; and the revving of motorbikes, which the guards would use to attempt to block out the horror; and then the silence after and the hum over the ovens. Credibly creating all these sounds whilst not sensationalizing the material and whilst respecting the victims and survivors was a terrific knife edge.

Two very different worlds, even as they are so close together. The home is filled with laughter and the garden with birds, but then the horrifying sounds from the camp.
The camp is really about the idyllic lifestyle of Hedwig and Rudolf and their young family. For Hedwig, she finally has the house and garden she has dreamed of. They are finally fulfilling not just their own dream, but the socialist nationalist dream of heading east and finding their own “living space.”

On the most basic level, they all block out the thing that allows them to be there — the sound that comes over the garden wall of the daily murder by gassing, the occasional gunshot and the torture of the prisoners. As viewers, we hear this. We know that you can block your eyes, but you cannot block your ears, so we wonder why they don’t react. But it is their choice, on some level, to do so.

Poor Things

Talk about your role on Poor Things.
I worked as sound designer/sound supervisor/re-recording mixer. Often you need a bunch of supervisors to all work individually and then bring the mix together at the final mixing stage. I work with a team of first assistants in one iteration of software, and we sculpt the mix as we go.

Who else was on your team, and how did you split up the duties?
First assistant Simon Carroll helps me with so much, and then I have two second assistants. When a film comes in, we watch it and decide what we need to do. We all work in the same software, on the same timeline, all at once. So if I need some more footsteps in a scene, for example, I will throw a marker in the “To Do” marker list. One of the guys who is feeling happy about feet that day will hit it! This extends out to all sorts of sound design and premixing work. My team is exceedingly talented and is adept at many disciplines — dialogue editing and clean-up, Foley editing, design and mix work. Being so diverse keeps it interesting for them too.

How would you describe the soundscape of Poor Things?
The sound design for Poor Things is a sophisticated blend of seemingly real-world authenticity in a rather surreal environment; creative sound manipulation; and a deep understanding of the film’s narrative and emotional context. The work is integral to the overall impact of the film. We created soundscapes that are both beautiful and surreal yet feel “normal” over the extraordinary visuals of the film. It was also designed to allow the actors’ performances to really sing.

You are a frequent collaborator of Yorgos’. When did he approach you about this film, and how does that relationship work?
Yes, this was our fourth film together. I am so lucky! We spoke about the film quite a while back. We have a very good shorthand really. During the making of the post soundscape for The Killing of a Sacred Deer, Yorgos had to leave at the start of the process. The fact that he didn’t walk out when he heard it at the Cannes premier made for a good level of trust between us!

The film is a comedy/fantasy. How did you use sound to help tell this story? Does it change much from the time Bella (Emma Stone) is brought back to life and is still learning how to live to when she regains some of her freedom/independence?
Absolutely. The sound develops in terms of age characteristic and playfulness, becoming more mature as it goes on. The soundscapes my team and I created help to lend credibility to the extraordinary set builds, and therefore in some way they go toward helping with world-building. Here, great sound design ideally goes unnoticed! But there are some fun, standout bits, like squishy frogs, barking chickens and ships with a heartbeat.

What were some of the more challenging scenes in the film from an audio perspective?
Probably the most challenging were the scenes that show Bella’s extraordinary character growing up. We had to keep the playful tone without undermining a serious message. Also, not one of these places has ever actually existed, nor, given how surreal, have there been any places like them. So the challenge was finding sounds that were unique and bizarre enough to work but not so much that they attracted attention.

Any scenes that stand out as a favorite?
I really love the opening scene in the hallway, with Bella on her bike. Jerskin Fendrix’s extraordinary score is playing and the chicken-dog is barking. The sound design over the end credits was great fun too.

What kind of notes/direction were you getting from Yorgos?
Yorgos and I have such a shorthand, and he really is the most supportive director ever. He hires you because he knows you understand his filmmaking, and then he creates enormous space for you to work in. He knows that I can get going without much of a brief, and then we meet late in post to see where I am at.

Where did you do the work, and what tools did you use?
My team and I recorded sound in the field and then worked out of Wave Studios in London for editorial and premixing. We final-mixed at Halo Post in London. I have a great Dolby Atmos room at my home in Brighton, on the south coast below London. I work predominantly in a less common software called Nuendo [from Steinberg]. It accommodates thousands of audio tracks, network collaboration with my team, and huge sound design and Dolby Atmos mix opportunities. More people should use it.

What haven’t I asked that’s important? 
Integrating with Jerskin’s amazing Oscar-nominated score! Yorgos never used a composer before, and previously I would have had to stitch together disparate musical tonalities into a cohesive soundscape. Not anymore! Plus, his score is so unusual and singular that it really made me adapt my soundscape somewhat more to its essence. Plus, he is a lovely guy!